Turkish Friendship

I am always surprised that MGO is visited and read by a significant number of Turkish readers who either live in Turkey or elsewhere. At times, they outnumber my readers who live in Greece.  Occasionally, they leave comments and although they are uniformly polite and most embrace some sort of Greek-Turkish friendship, they often espouse views that I think are indicative of the deep divide between Greeks and Turks. Almost two years ago I wrote a post which still seems to engender the periodic comment.  Hande recently made the following comment which is typical of the feedback I receive:

"History, history, history...Keeps repeating all the time. I dont really understand what is the importance to keep bring up this subject and be stuck on the past? And pointing in one way or another who did what, who is guilty?  Where is this going to lead anyway?........Turks don't hate Greeks! Like Greeks have been thinking all these years about Turks. But ironically its actually more the Greeks who still hate the Turks because of history/politics. Greece and Cyprus don't even come close to seeking a peace with Turkey because they are not willing to let go of the past and to get rid of this hate.  As long as the hate and the hostility remain inside it will be impossible to find the peace and the future can't get better. It's really, really sad why it just can't be like in the old times, when we lived side by side as friends with peace."

As someone who was born in Turkey, I grew up listening to the funny stories of Nasrudin Hoca.  He was a 13th century philosopher and wise man who lived in Anatolia, and is remembered throughout the Islamic world for his stories and anecdotes. Nasrudin's stories can be described as a repository of folk wisdom both illogical yet logical, bizarre yet normal, foolish yet brilliant, and simple yet profound, very much akin to Aesop's fables. Even more unique was how he gets his unconventional message across. My mother, in particular, always had a Nasrudin anecdote which magically appeared whenever she wanted to drive some lesson home to her wayward son.

As I write this I have no intention to embarass nor do I hold any malice toward Hande, who I believe sincerely wants to see better relations between Greeks and Turks. I welcome a dialogue on the subject and I will respond by first quoting a Nasrudin anecdote:

 Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite  side:

    "Hey! how do I get to the other side?"

    "You are on the other side!" Nasrudin shouted back.

Greeks and Turks have a great deal of shared history. I personally am a great proponent of its study. It explains a great deal and if we avoid the all too customary attempts to rewrite it to our liking, we might learn enough from it to avoid repeating the catastrophes of the past. Most Greeks and Turks see history a little differently because they have been taught different versions of it. I think however, that if we can agree on one thing it is that for a very long time the relationship between Turk and Greek was very unequal, i.e. conqueror and conquered. It was a tenuous relationship, a Turk could be a friend one day and signing your death warrant the next.

Given your dislike of history and its stubborn facts, let's put it aside and fast forward to the present.

-The Greek minority in Istanbul, Tenedos and Imvros, a protected minority, is hovering around 2000,  down  from well over 200,000 in 1922. The Greeks whose property was destroyed or confiscated in the Pogrom of 1955 have never been compensated nor have they ever received an official apology.

-Turkish warplanes constantly violate Greek airspace, often directly flying over populated Greek islands in the Aegean.

-The Turkish Army illegally occupies almost half of the island of Cyprus which it cleansed of its original inhabitants. The Turkish authorities are currently selling Greek owned properties to the highest bidder while systematically destroying every vestige of the Greek cultural and religious heritage of the occupied territory.

-The Muslim minority which consists of Pomaks (Muslim Slavs), Roma and Turks in Thrace, also a protected minority, has grown from 85000 in 1922 to 100,000, and is the target of Turkish attempts to claim Turkish identity for is disparate groups.

-The Orthodox Patriarch, who must by law be a Turkish citizens, is not allowed to reopen the Halki seminary thus in effect condemning the Patriarchate to eventual extinction.

These are hardly manifestations of Turkish "friendship."   I suggest to you that even if we set aside the historical context of our two peoples, we cannot as easily set aside these current and divisive issues.  Recently hundreds of pilgrims from Russia and Greece traveled to the Monastery of Panagia Soumela in Trabzon.  Many of them were descendants of the Pontic Greeks who lived along the Black Sea coast for thousands of years before the arrival of the Turks. Over half a million were killed and the rest were forcibly evicted from their lands and homes, well before the exchange of populations decreed by the Treaty of Lausanne. This small group of tourists had the audacity to attempt to hold a small prayer service outside the monastery, an Orthodox religious site that is over a thousand years old and still sacred to Orthodox Christians.  The Turkish government has converted it to a museum for tourists. The prayer service took place on the occasion of the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  The service was interrupted by the Director of the Trabzon Museum, Nilgun Yilmazer, who tried to stop the prayer saying, "Sumela is not a place open to prayer." The incident was captured on video and reported in the Turkish newspaper, Hurriyet, which by the way, incorrectly states that the monastery was "abandoned."  The monks who occupied it were either killed or were focrcibly evicted by the Turkish military, they hardly left of their own accord.

Kemal Ataturk founded modern Turkey on a strict principle of secularism. In Turkey, secularism does not mean the separation of state and religion, but rather the control of religion by the state. For Muslims it means women are not allowed to wear a head scarf  while attending a university, for Christians it means something completely different. It means in many cases that they are not allowed to freely practice their religion in a country that professes freedom of religion for all.  There is an ongoing power struggle for Turkey's soul between the secular Kemalists and the Islamists. Neither group is dedicated to protecting individual freedoms and rights and both groups subscribe to the ultra-nationalist thinking that breeds an environment in which Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is a bestseller, the Armenian and Pontic genocides are denied, minorities are persecuted and dreams of a new Ottoman Empire are revived. Hrant Dink, the Armenian editor, was murdered by such a nationalist. It is this mix of virulent nationalism and predatory Islam in Turkey that poses such a challenge for many well meaning and peace loving Turks who want their country to change for the better.

As Nasrudin cleverly points out, Hande, the problem is not on the other side of the river, it is on your side.

Comments

[Peter]

Once again a post to get me thinking. Well I would like to remind Hande of one important fact history repeats itself. The problem is that we forget history and it apears many do not know geography. It appears you have studied neither.

First of all it appears that Like the Armenians and the Kurds we were forced to live under Turkish tyranny for approximately 400 years. And still to this day the majority of Turks do not acknowledge the GENECIDE of the Greeks, Armenians and the Kurds. It certainly would behoove you if we did.

As a nation you want to enter the European Union. It astounds me that an Asian nation even has aspirations to join the European Union. Other then a small amount of land west of the Bosporus your entire country lies in Asia. Your fellow countrymen who migrate into other countries are allowed to publicly worship in their faith. Yet within your borders religious freedom does not exist. It has once again been documented by the events at the Monastery that history does and will always repeat itself.

How can you suggest that any of us could consider you as a friend? As a Greek I could never trust you unless you were in front of me at all times and my eyes can be on you. And as an American I can tolerate you only because of the strategic location of the bases we use. So never forget your history and be sure neither will we.

[john akritas]

Very well put, S. I've been having similar thoughts about Turks who blame 'Greek hatred' for the hostile relations between Greece and Turkey. Recently on youtube I posted a video regarding the murder of five Cypriot POWs by Turkish soldiers during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. A Turkish commenter wrote, words to the effect of, 'I listen to Greek music, have Greek friends, etc, but why do Greeks like you hate Turks so much that you would post such lies and propaganda? With people like you, there will never be peace in Cyprus or between Greece and Turkey.'

I deleted the comment as I delete all such comments from Turks. Maybe I should leave such comments up, because they expose Turkish dishonesty; their failure to ask themselves not why Greeks hate Turks, but why Turks hate Greeks (and others) so much that they are not only prepared to commit atrocities against them but to afterwards deny that they took place or to demonstrate any conscience about them. No other country or people in the world has this Turkish mentality, this inability to accept wrongdoing. I noticed an article the other day regarding an apology made by Lt William Calley over the My Lai massacre.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/6072064/My-Lai-massacre-Lt-William-Calley-apologises-more-than-40-years-after-Vietnam.html

I thought it provided an interesting comparison between the way a democratic, Western country deals with its recent past and the way Turkey does.

[john akritas]

I remember better now. The Turk I refer to above didn't object to the video of the murder of the Cypriot POWs I posted. It was the video to do with Turkish soldiers murdering a family of four, including two handicapped children, which he thought revealed Greek hatred for Turks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l3tips-dU

I agree with Peter that with such logic – and remember we are dealing here not with one of these stupid 'All Gay Greeks must die' Turks (I get a lot of these comments too) but with a Turk who proclaims his admiration for Greek culture and wants friendship – it is impossible for us to trust Turks and any hand of friendship must be treated with extreme, extreme caution.

Why are the Turks like this? Here's a thought. Greek and Western culture is rooted in self-criticism. It starts with The Iliad, where the Greeks are portrayed as a pretty terrible lot, while the Trojans are endowed with all the noble qualities; carries on in Thucydides where the democratic Athenians endlessly discuss the course and nature of the war with Sparta and the rights and wrongs of Athenian actions, particularly the Melos massacre; and, perhaps, reaches its zenith in Christianity, which is, for better or worse, entirely about seeing your own wrongdoing before seeing that of others and doing penance for your wrongdoing. Since the Turks belong neither to the Greco-Western or the Christian tradition, perhaps we should not be surprised by their failure to admit and accept responsibility for their crimes.

[Stavros]

I am not willing to go that far and say that it is impossible to trust Turks or that we must slap away any hand of friendship that is offered. Perhaps that stems from my Christian orientation, for better or worse.

Greece and to a lessor degree Cyprus are the proverbial flies in the ointment for a huge country like Turkey. They do not pose a threat except as a transitory obstacles to its domination of the Eastern Mediterranean. Turkey is a highly nationalistic country whose people are literally indoctrinated from a young age to revere the military and above all the symbol of the Nation, Ataturk and the star and crescent flag.

The average Turk is taught the Turkish version of history and that version would never countenance admitting fault, genocide, atrocities or anything else that would taint the nation's honor. Such thinking is after all, as John points out, a very Western ethos occasionally taken to ridiculous and self-defeating extremes.

It used to be said that dead men tell no tales, now we find that in fact they can tell us quite a bit, perhaps more than some of us would like to hear. Shining the light of day on what has until now been hidden or obscured is a much needed catharsis for the parties involved. Nations, that includes Greece, that postpone this national catharsis do themselves no good.

My problem with most Turks is that they may want good relations with their Greek neighbors but seem incapable of making their government act accordingly.

[petros]

thank you peter for your coments.those are my exact sentiments,and that is why i will never
allow anything to enter my house that states
"made in turkey"my children have been trained the same way.PLEASE BOYCOT TURKISH GOODS.

[emre]

Boycotting Turkish goods and instilling hate in your children will surely promote goodwill.

[Kosta]

Stavro,

Very well said. As I have friends and co-workers who are Turkish (one of the latter who was shocked at my reaction to his statement "one of the reasons the Ottoman Empire was so successful was because they left people alone), I have seen different degrees of brainwashing. Of my friends, it is an uncomfortable subject the blood on their hands of their people, so I leave it alone. I did attempt to politely enlighten my co-worker to the savagery committed by the Ottoman which may have been effective as he was truly disturbed by how shocked I was (I think my initial response was "Are you crazy?!?!?"). I don't think anyone challenged him like that.

The problem that Greece and Greeks really has is with the Turkish military. I wish I kept it, but I remember reading one of the Turkish generals talking about how they want to reestablish their borders to the Adriatic. Now this is just one man, but the military does control the country, and allows the government to rule as long as it stays within certain parameters.

Anytime that any society has a cult of personality like Turkey and Ataturk, isn't a good thing.

I strongly agree with your last statement Stavro, but I would replace government with military.

Kosta

[Athanasios]

Stavro,
I think you could begin a discussion here about the "new ottoman" doctrine of Turkish foreign policy, inspired by Ahmet Davutoglu's book "Stratejik Derinlik". A very interesting issue which ought to concern every Greek (and which the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs apparently has not paid enough attention to).

[Nero]

If you think being friends with the turks or forgetting the past is going to make the world full of flowers and butterflies your living in a fantasy land.

The mindset of the turks is that the strong are respected and feared the weak and soft are not - welcome to the mindset of the Middle East and Muslims.

The turks will wait and wait until you are weak and disorganized and then they will strike - Constantinopolis, Cyprus, Imia etc.

They know that they will eventually take over all of Greece with their muslim brothers and sisters who they send by boat and truck.
turks will never ever change their ways. They seek the re-establishment of the Ottoman Empire and then some.
The building blocks are in place in Bosnia, Kosovo thanks to the USA/UK (the official sponsors of muslim nation building).

I don't care to be friends with turks as I don't care to be friends with Nazis...if they didn't exist the world would have been a better place.

[john akritas]

I also strenuously avoid Turkish products. Why on earth would I want to support the Turkish economy? I've noticed that The Gap and Nike make a lot of their stuff in Turkey and here, in the UK, the Turks have cornered the market in dried figs and dried apricots and also have a significant market share when it comes to lemons and satsumas. I once had to return a portable TV after discovering when I got it home that it was made in Turkey. Not being able to find non-Turkish dried figs and apricots is particularly annoying, and I have to make do with dried dates – a small sacrifice for the sake of national dignity, I suppose.

[Stavros]

I am not sure that we will ever bring the Turks to there knees by refusing to buy their dried figs but I can certainly sympathize with the principle involved. :)

Thano,

Davutoglu is called the Kissinger of Turkey. The original one was bad enough for Hellenism. From what I've read about his book, Strategic Depth, he advocates a Neo-Ottoman policy of constructive engagement with Turkey's array of neighbors with Turkey in the role of regional power. I am currently researching a post that will hopefully generate a discussion vis a vis Davutoglu and the late great Greek strategic thinker, Panagiotis Kondylis.

A blog called Antipodes has written extensively about the subject and is worth reading:

http://antipodes-antipodean.blogspot.com/2009/07/architecture-of-neo-ottomanism-part-1.html

[Stavros]

http://www.ellopos.com/blog/?p=1008

[Michael]

I'm an American and see the rise of Islam in the USA which has open Border's for African Muslims and all Muslims. We are following down the European path and Islam is Colonizing the USA just as it did in Europe. Europe will become Islamic through Colonization.

My family came fron Constantino Polis and moved to Italy in the 1400's; to MagnaGrecia, later to the USA around 1900. There were once many Italian-Greeks-Byzantines but time had made many forget. I knew as a boy that Islam would make war on the West. The Turks must renounce Jihad and territorial expansion.

[petroskar@att.net]

"those that forget the past have no future".
never forget the atrocities that the turks have commited against all the christians.

[Christine Toskos]

Why was that barbaric woman so afraid of having religious services on Greek land? Because Islamic religion teaches that there is only peace when Islam is the only religion. That is why the barbaric Islamic terrorists where dancing in the streets when the world trade center in NYC fell.

[Ray]

I am Turkish and I can tell you that I have never in my life been taught to hate Greeks. Never.

Actually, I have numerous Greek friends and there is no animosity between us. None. Though to be honest, at first there was some apprehension but the moment we got to know one another, the respect grew and we found we are more similar than different.

People are being born all the time. It is not hard to remember the past but also make a new future. Sometimes traditional enemies in history can make the best friends for a better future.

I am glad that I don't carry any hatred baggage around in me towards any people. I know the history of the Turks involves many people whom they fought with but I got news for you - I was not alive in those times. Is it fair to judge me on things that happened before I was born?

Anyhow, thats my 2 cents on the subject...