Treason By Any Other Name

Hermes writes:

I'd like to pay tribute to one of the greatest unsung patriotic Hellenes of the last 200 years. A great man who put service of his nation and its people before everything else. Thanks Mr Lalas.

Dear Hermes,

Intelligence gathering is a game that is played by enemies and allies alike. I am not surprised in the slightest that the Greek government used Steven Lalas to collect useful intelligence and then abandoned him when he was caught. They didn't even have the decency to take care of his family now living in Kavala. Jonathan Pollard was an American who spied for another "ally," Israel and was eventually caught. In his case, the Israeli government has gone out of its way, unsuccessfully I might add, to obtain his release.

Most Americans of Greek descent, that I know, are proud of our shared heritage. We are also proud of being Americans and cognizant of our responsibilities. Although we may not always agree with American foreign policy, we are not about to abandon or betray the country that we are beholden to for our freedoms and our very lives. That would be a complete abdication of something that is the very essence of Greekness: philotimo.

Steven Lalas is a tragic figure. He thought he was doing the right thing. That doesn't change the fact that he is a traitor. He got what he deserved.

Comments

[Diogenes]

Speaking of getting what one deserves, why do pay attention to Hermes at all?

He is just a miserable crank, and his comments are not worth replying to (I'm surprised you don't wind up deleting most of them).

[Stavros]

Before I started blogging I spent a great deal of time on Phylax Blog. Ted Laskaris hardly ever deleted a comment. I always admired his patience and tolerance, besides Hermes gives me ample opportunities to use his comments as training aids. I apologize if he offends. Please feel free to rebut as long as things remain somewhat civil.

[Hermes]

Gentlemen, the United States means very little to me. Stavros, be careful of the propaganda you read.

[Margaret]

Any news of Ted, btw. I often wonder what happened to him?

[Stavros]

Margaret,

I too miss Ted. I have no idea what happened to him but wish he would surface long enough to let us all know he is OK.

[Scruffy]

Stavro, do you have any contacts in DHS that we can possibly use to give Hermes an all expense paid trip to Gitmo? His hatred of the USA needs exploring.

[pppd]

If i may i would like to comment some. I hope that in this blog i will find, not necessarily supporters but at least a free expression of my views. & let me start.
You call Stavros a traitor that is something that i don't share but i respect your opinion.
What would you call some Greek-American (American - Greek if you prefer)official who helped the US govt. by spying on Greece? there was such a man once & he was executed by November 17 (17N) guerrilla group. His name was Captain George Tsantes of the US. Navy. i suppose you would call him a hero. & probably you will be right, because he did good for the us foreign policy. the opposite was done to Greece's foreign policy.
now let me ask in return. a year ago the whole Nation in Greece was struck by some cell phone tapping originated (that is a fact now) at the US embassy in Athens. I strongly believe that all fbi agents should have been treated the same way Stavros was. but luckily for them nothing happened. All i want to say is this. I respect the American people but i have no respect at all to the us foreign policy not only towards Greece but other country's as well. Greece's foreign policy sucks the most.

[pppd]

one last comment.
"Stavro, do you have any contacts in DHS that we can possibly use to give Hermes an all expense paid trip to Gitmo? His hatred of the USA needs exploring."
If that is the way of treating someone with a different opinion, well that needs exploring too.

[Stavros]

PPPD,

Welcome to MGO. George Tsantes was an American hero who gave his life trying to help Greece. He was part of an organization called the Joint US Military Aid Group to Greece which managed the military assistance program to Greece, which I might point out was quite extensive. JUSMAGG had a number of Greek Americans working for it including myself and it also included members of the Greek Armed Forces.

Intelligence gathering was never part of our mission although the United States gathers intelligence on its allies just like our allies gather intelligence on us.

JUSMAGG was the organization (headed by Van Fleet) that helped defeat the Communist insurgency in Greece. No wonder we were targeted by the descendants of the people the United States helped defeat.Thank God Greece did not go the way of Albania. Greeks are rightly concerned about the issue of FYROM and the US recognition of the name "Macedonia." I share your concerns. Isn't it ironic though that the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) which now has seats in Parliament, was ready to give Greek Macedonia away during the Civil War to its Communist allies in Yugoslavia. Seems that Americans are not the only ones that suffer from historical amnesia.

As a members of JUSMAGG, myself and other Americans were targets for assassination throughout our tours. We could have hunkered down and done ZERO to help our Greek counterparts trying to maintain some semblance of Greek military strength. In fact we did our very best under trying circumstances to keep the Greek military viable.

Greek Americans, despite what you may think, want Greece to succeed. We would love to see Greece fashion an effective foreign policy against multiple threats to its security. We have worked within the democratic system to help Greece, perhaps not as effectively as we would like. Nevertheless, its up to the "real" Greeks to create a workable foreign policy. If that means that they abandon the alliance with the US then so be it. Unfortunately, Greeks keep re-electing leaders who have no intention of withdrawing from this alliance, maybe they see some benefits?

An American agent working for his country is not a traitor. Stavros Lalas was born and raised in the US, served in the US Army and took an oath to the US. He betrayed his country for another. He divulged the names of American agents that compromised their safety. He believes that he was sold out by a Greek traitor. Check this interview out:

www.stevenlalas.com/videos/steve.asx

Greeks may consider him a hero, Americans can only see him as a traitor.

[Scruffy]

Lalas was a US Gov't official who was a traitor. It's disgusting you would compare him to Capt. Tsantes. Capt Tsantes who was a true American Patriot serving his country (AMERICA) in an honorable way.

George Tsantes was no spy. He was simply a US Military officer assigned to Greece.

Also, there is no evidence that the US gov't was involved in the vodafone scandal.

What you describe is common of typical Greek conspiracy theories. To save you the trouble, here's the standard ones similar to what you noted:

- Jews fault for everything (911, Tsunamis, Greek inflation etc).

- USA's fault for everything else...

Hey, if conspiracy theories and other "blame the USA" theories make a person feel psychologically better, I'm all for it, but at the end of the day, it's just not reality.

[Stavros]

Scruff,

I am afraid conspiracy theories are also quite popular here in the States. For example, there are a number of Americans that believe the collapse of the Twin Towers was an "inside" job.

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html

[Scruffy]

Hi Stavro,

I was directly my previous comments to PPPD regarding Lalas and not you and I hope I didn't offend you.

As far as the conspiracy theories in the states, that may be true, but I haven't met too many of those 36% of Americans in my circle, but unfortunately I meet quite a few in that category in Greece.

But, hey there are mislead people worldwide I suppose.

:)

[pppd]

Stavro. Iam very pleased to see someone with a good background of Greece's past. I never said that KKE was right on their part abt macedonia. on the other hand i suppose you will aggree that the "Τruman dogma" was too harsh to forget. I dont want to be misunderstood here. You & the other ppl that you mentioned that have come to Greece for one reason or another i really dont question your motivation on helping Greece. But as you said you took an oath & if a dilemma occurs to do something to protect either US or Greek interest in harm of the other, of course you will take action towards US interest. Lalas did the opposite, among you he is considered as a traitor but to us he is not because he helped his forefathers land. You know Stavros iam from Crete & i canot walk my way to certain areas of Suda bay because a soldier in a foreign uniform talking in a foreign language points a gun at me saying "go away restricted area". Would you like that to happen in US soil?? i guess not. As i said on my previous post the Greek foreign policy is not the best you can get in fact some times is the worst. I dont care if my govt thinks its for the best interest to step back every time US asks for it, its wrong.US is good for the US citizens in US and abroad but not for the rest of us, & thats ok i can understand that.
Stavro, thanks for the welcoming words & for the polite way of your post. I hope i've done the same in return.

Scruffy:
please read my post more carefull & dont say thinks i haven't. in my post i said quote "some cell phone tapping originated (that is a fact now) at the US embassy in Athens" end of quote. i never said US govt. & dont tell me that everything occuring at a US embassy around the globe is known at the state dpt or the whole gvt aggrees on that action. I dont think for the tsunamis we have to blame the Jews or the Americans but we have to blame our selfs for not doing what we must do to protect our own interests. & you know what dont try to act smart by stating thinks like "But, hey there are mislead people worldwide I suppose." iam ready to say that i might be a fool & idiot, because i might be misled, are you sure that whatever is served to you is the correct?? if your answer is yes the sorry to say but i'm not the only fool.

[Stavros]

Scruff,

No offense taken. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we Americans ignore the very same behaviors we blame Europeans for when they are exemplified by our own countrymen. Your perspective living in Greece is different from mine living in the USA. I find some of the worst Anti-Americans are Americans themselves, who have lived here for generations.

I must agree with you however, that the steady drumbeat of blame heaped on the US by Greeks is tiresome not to mention fruitless. It distracts Greeks from the much needed self-examination that they need to engage in order to solve their problems, just as much as it distracts Americans like us from re-examining why America is so despised throughout the world right now.

[demonax]

Some of the comments above are shameful. I don't know how any Greek could regard Lalas as a traitor, as someone anything other than a paradigmatic Greek national hero and patriot, who served his country selflessly and with honour.

As for what Americans think of him, who cares? I hope there are more Greek Americans out there with the guts to follow the same noble path as Lalas.

And your last comment, Stavros, about Lalas believing he was double crossed by a Greek agent is simply not true. Lalas does not say this. His complaint is that he felt abandoned by the Greek state and let down by the amateurishness of the Greek secret services. Nevertheless, he does not regret his actions and still believes in and loves his country. I, for one, was deeply moved by his statements of patriotism.

[Stavros]

PPPD,

Listen you are always welcome here, even if you disagree with everything I write. I wish you had a name though. If you spend any time reading MGO you will realize that I am quite proud of my Greek heritage. The only Greek born person in our family is my wife. The rest of us were born outside of Greece. My parents and grandparents were born in Northern Epirus and I was born in Constantinople. My grandfathers fought for Greece in the Balkan Wars and one also fought in Asia Minor in 1921-22. We still speak Greek and we are still Greek Orthodox after centuries of living outside of Greece. America gave us a home when we had no where else to go. We have so much to be grateful for here in the United States. Although we love all Greeks no matter where they are, I hope you can understand that betraying America is not an option.

If you are frustrated by Greek foreign policy so am I. If you are frustrated by American foreign policy, so am I. We live in democracies, we have ways to effect change available to us.

If you do not want an American base in Souda, work to elect a government that will close it just like past governments closed the other American bases that existed in Greece. Getting rid of American bases in Crete is easy. How are you going to get rid of all the xeni buying property on your beautiful island?

I have always had a soft spot for the Cretan spirit. I am reminded that a group of Cretans defended a watchtower during the siege of Constantinople. Sultan Mehmet's Janissaries were unable to breach it even after the rest of the City fell. He finally gave up, allowing them to walk out and sail home to Crete.

You are very right though we all are products of our experiences and what we have been "fed." MGO is an opportunity to listen to other points of view.

[Stavros]

Demonax,

This is from an article in the National Herald, a Greek American newspaper, it summarizes an interview between Lalas and journalist Alexis Papahelas this past July 8 at the prison where Lalas was held for the program "Fakeloi" on the Greek television network, MEGA:

"Asked by Mr. Papahelas if he thought he was turned over to the American side by a Greek traitor, Mr. Lalas said he believed so: "I don’t know if I was ratted out or simply handed over, but somebody spoke, somebody betrayed me," he said. "That is what I believe. The traitor will be found," he added.
The U.S. Government has claimed its first tip that led to Mr. Lalas’ identification as a spy was the result of an accidental slip in a conversation between a Greek Embassy official in Washington and a State Department official. The Greek official apparently mentioned information which could only have come from a secret communication between the U.S. Embassy in Athens and the State Department. The State Department’s investigation on the matter pointed to Mr. Lalas, who was later observed through a video monitoring system taking documents intended for destruction."

What is shameful is betraying the country whose uniform you wear. Lalas is an aberration. No self-respecting Greek American would do something like this.

[pppd]

Stavro.
In response to your statement " i wish you had a name". Well my Name is Lefteris. "prety common for a guy from Crete". I'm not afraid of xeni as you say. We have always welcomed our "xeni" or guests to our houses throughout the centuries. Its one thing if an American comes as a guest to our house & another as a soldier. As a guest i can offer him Raki & raisins, as a soldier it really bothers me. Abt your comment to try and elect a government to close the souda base, its funny but i still remember as a young boy back then in mid 80's the rhetoric speeches by Andreas Papandreou that all American bases will close. most of them are still there, some as American & some as "Nato" with 99,9 % Americans. Yes by all means i can understand your statment "betraying America is not an option." hopefully you will understand we feel the same for Greece.

[Stavros]

Lefteri mou,

I lived in Greece in the 1980s and I remember all the promises, "Tha,tha,tha." Papandreou was America's best friend. At that time I lived in Athens, in a suburb called Voula. All of us American occupiers lived out on the economy and the Greek landlords and businesses that made money off of us were crying when we left. Most of my American military friends, with exceptions, loved Greece and most Greeks treated us very well despite the political climate of the times. I even married a nice Greek girl while stationed in Greece.

The US has worldwide bases because it has worldwide commitments. If you can think of a country which had American bases and where Americans were asked to leave but refused to do so, I would like to hear about it.

The last time Cretans had guests who were soldiers, they came in two varieties. British and Germans. The Cretans adored the former and fought at their side and they despised the latter and fought against them tooth and nail. Please don't put Americans in the latter category because for all our faults, and we have many, the world is better off because America exists.

If Greeks want to think the worst of Americans that is fine. They are entitled to do so. I just hope that they understand that Greek Americans aren't going to hop on the bandwagon because we are supposed to put Greece before all else.

[demonax]

A uniform is a piece of cloth with tassels and embroidery. I don't see how such a thing can be betrayed. What can be betrayed is a race and its history. Since Americans aren't a race and have no history, then I don't know what Lalas is supposed to have betrayed.
Self-respect? Lalas strikes me as a man with plenty of that, and plenty of philotimo. Obviously, Lalas must make Greek Americans feel uncomfortable and highlight their confused status and loyalties, but that's a problem for them to wrestle with and says nothing to the detriment of Lalas or his noble and patriotic actions.

[pppd]

File Stavro.
Glad you remember all of this tha tha. You lived in voula that makes us neighbors i was living in Ano Glyfada back then. Well you know you are right and wrong at the same time. Yes ppl who thought of their own interest of course they cried when you left but that was not the general spirit of the time. & as i said dont get me wrong, i would sit with any American not necessarily of Greek decent & gladly have a chat, a beer, even host him to my house. What we are talking here (at least iam) is politics. No one in Greece is expecting the Greek Americans to hop on the bandwagon. Thats something you have to decide. Now about the bases, i dont really like the word commitment because this is the status you came up with. The greek ppl for the last 34 yrs are shouting nearly everyday for the bases to be removed, but our governments never took properly actions, & that makes you right on the base that no official letter or action was ever presented to US. About Crete, At the fight for Crete well i dont suppose you think that we got any help? the help was given until the British troops abandoned the island after that the Cretan ppl payed the price -& up to date we are proud of that- of course i dont put the Americans in the Nazi category, i would be a fool to condemn a whole nation for the actions of some individuals which i disagree. as of filotimo i would agree with demonax, but again it might be from which point you look at it.

[Stavros]

Demo,

So is a flag. Both represent a nation. A nation can be betrayed and often is by those that don't know any better.

American are a mongrel nation made up of every race and every nation. That is what makes us so formidable, because everyone knows that mongrels are smarter, faster and stronger than the pure breeds who have had the stuffing bred right out of them.

Perhaps your understanding of filotimo and that of Mr. Lalas is different from mine. The code I live by requires one to be loyal to the nation that takes care of you and your family. It requires one to be honorable.
There is nothing honorable about treason no matter how you dress it up.

As for Greek Americans, most of the one's I know and I suspect I know a few more than you do, have absolutely no confusion about who they are. If you think we stay awake nights tormented by some Faustian dilemma about where our primary loyalty lies, you are mistaken. If you were right about our confused status and divided loyalties, you would be seeing a massive migration of Greek Americans back to Greece. Ain't gonna happen.

I treasure my Greek heritage; all of it. No one can take that away from me even if I don't fit in to their super-charged version of Greekness or pass their loyalty test.

[Stavros]

Lefteri,

It's a small world. You are right, it's a matter of perspective. If I had not grown up in the United States and spent 22 years in the Marines maybe I could agree with you and Demo.

[Hermes]

I think every person should have some loyalty to their country of birth or habitation. What Lalas did irks me a little. However, he was not giving secrets to an enemy of the United States. Greek Americans should make more effort to change their government’s policies more in favour of Greek interests. They should make more effort to perceive the world from the Greek point of view and not other powerful lobby groups in Washington. Hellenism is more important than the United States. Much more important. It needs special attention and nurturing.

[pppd]

Stavro.
Thanks very much indeed for the nice chat. We might agree & we might disagree, but its up to us to find new ways of understanding.

Ευχαριστώ για την φιλοξενία στο blog.