Turks versus Greeks: Why We Can't Get Along

I have often been asked by my American friends why the Greeks and Turks can't seem to get along. Why all the enmity between two peoples that have lived side by side for centuries. Why can't Greeks and Turks shake hands and put all their differences aside? It seems so easy. Then again everything is easy for we Americans, friends become enemies and enemies become friends, overnight.

Before my family immigrated to the United States we lived in Turkey. My great grandfather left his native village of Politsani in Northern Epirus and established himself as a merchant in Constantinople around the turn of the century. There he prospered in a small village located on the shores of the Bosporus called Neohori, a suburb if you will, of the great city. The population was predominantly Greek with a number of Jews, Armenians and Turks as well.  Later he passed on his business to his eldest and most capable son, my grandfather Panayiotis, who moved his family from Politsani to Constantinople. My mother and her siblings grew up in Turkey, she married my father there and a few years later I came along. We left Turkey in 1956, having survived a pogrom that hardly drew a mention in the New York Times. We fled to Greece, where a similarly protected Muslim minority suffered no outrages by avenging Greeks. That minority by the way has grown in size, is represented in the Greek parliament, and is subsidized in part by the Greek government.  Within a few years a vibrant and "protected" community of over 100.000 Greeks was sent packing, never to return. Years later I would return as an adult to the country of my birth, now properly cleansed of its former unreliable inhabitants, in my capacity as a U.S. Marine.  We were working on the planning of a joint exercise when my Turkish counterpart asked me if I spoke any Turkish. I replied that I had learned a few words from my mother. His eyes lit up, "She's Turkish?"  " No, she's Greek but she grew up here." I answered.  He quickly dropped the subject and never mentioned it again, although he never let me out of his sight during the entire visit to the Division HQ.

I would say that as a family we have had ample opportunity to live side by side and understand the Turks and Turkish attitudes toward Greeks.  In Turkey, Greeks have always walked a tightrope between a shimmering prosperity and imminent disaster.   On a people to people basis, Greeks and Turks who have lived side by side are capable of  a grudging respect and a live and let live view of things. Underneath this patina of mutual humanity however, the two peoples have a shared history which is long, bloody and terrible to behold. This history is exemplified by a relationship in which Greeks, no matter how rich, how accommodating or how wily and smart were always in a subservient relationship to Turks. The only way Greeks have been able to sever that relationship was when they waged war.  Similarly, the only way that Turks could maintain that relationship in a acceptable equilibrium is when they could achieve a mastery over Greeks and maintain it. Add to this explosive mix the underlying conflict between Islam and Christianity and one realizes that Greeks have had to live in an alternating universe in which Islam goes from tolerance to dhimitude, from peaceful co-existence to jihad.

To understand the connection between Ottoman Turkey and modern day Turkey one must comprehend that Turks see themselves as heirs to an empire and that they are still a major world power that demands respect. Within this empire there is no longer room for troublesome minorities such as Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds or Greeks.  Turks have no friends but Turks and so it is. In order to establish Turkish racial purity and obtain lebensraum for "real" Turks, minorities must be expunged either through genocide or ethnic cleansing. Quite frankly the Turks have become extremely adept at it, as evidenced by their successes in the last one hundred years. Nowhere is that more apparent than than in Cyprus, a historically and intrinsically Greek island where 83% of the population was not only Greek speaking but considered themselves wholly Greek. If Greeks yearned for "enosis (union)" with the fatherland, Turks wanted the equivalent, by another name, "taksim."  Turkish minority status was not an impediment because Turkey, in keeping with its founder's wishes was able to occupy almost half the island, cleanse it of its Greek inhabitants, repopulate it with Turkish settlers from Anatolia and essentially execute a de facto partition while declaring all their actions legal.

The facts of  Cypriot history can be argued ad infinitum. Needless to say it's an emotional subject for those of us with the sunny Mediterranean dispositions.  I daresay that we could ascribe to many different parties all kinds of blame. The ones that we should not blame however, are the innocent victims who lost their homes or their loved ones. They are merely pawns in a wider game. The Greek Cypriots have responded to the loss of their ancestral homes, the destruction of their churches and cemeteries, the looting of their historical legacy not with violence but instead, admirably, with a demand for justice. They have made and continue to  make every attempt to achieve a just and equitable settlement. Being willing to talk and even compromise does not mean settling for crumbs off the occupying power's table. It means justice for all.

Comments

[Hermes]

I think I have said this before but when overseas Greeks get the right to vote and their own Greek ministry, I will nominate Stavros as Minister of Diasporan Affairs.

[demonax]

Stavros
I agree with most of what you say, about Greek feelings of emnity being provoked by perceived injustices at the hands of the Turks; but am not convinced that Turkish hatred for us is just religious hatred for the infidels or involves some Turkish compulsion to dominate. The Turks blame the Greeks for wrecking the Ottoman empire – which was the highpoint in their history – we screwed up this paradise for them, not just by revolting against them and passing on nationalist aspirations to the other minorities in the Balkans and elsewhere, but also – in the last hundred years of the empire – when it effectively developed a semi-colonial status in relation to Europe – Ottoman Greeks, as well as Jews and Armenians, had real power – political but especially economic – which Turkish nationalists resented, envied and felt humiliated by. Don’t undersestimate this sense of Turkish humiliation – at the hands of Greeks and other Europeans.

[Stavros]

Demo,

Enver Pasha, one of the Young Turk leaders said the following about Turkish loss of territories in the European part of the Empire: "How can a person forget those fields, those meadows, over which the blood of the ancestors has flowed? To abandon them, along with our mosques, our tombs, our dervish lodges, our bridges and our fortresses, over whose squares Turkish raiders let their horses run, to the children of yesterday, and then, after 400 years, to be cast out of Rumelia and to move to Anatolia, this is something that cannot be borne. I would be gladly give remaining years of my life in order to take revenge on the Bulgarians, the Greeks and the Montenegrins."

As you can see humiliation was a major driving force motivating Turkish nationalism. It still is today. The Turks feel deeply humiliated by the EU's reluctance to admit them as a full member and believe me when I say they will not take it lying down.

The Turks are very good at forcing the vanquished to endure abject humiliation as they did in Smyrna after they occupied it. The Greeks and Armenians had to be dehumnanized and eradicated because they posed a threat to the cohesiveness of the new Turkish republic.

The Young Turks movement was inspired by the writings of Namik Kemal, who was rigorously opposed to any concessions towards the ethnic minorities in the empire. He also believed that the Turks were destined to rule those inferior cultures and peoples like the Greeks and Arabs.

[peter]

There can never be but enmity with the eternal enemy. Platitudinal flim flam with the turks are just a past time. It is the law of nature that two distinct and disparate race groups have to compete for the same limited living space.

[turan.1982@hotmail.com]

I am an Australian with a Turkish background and I find this funny that people who still talk about our past between the Turks and Geeks like it will stick with us fore ever. Ill tell you how a modern day educated Young Turk thinks and that is that they don’t care. History we should learn from not carry it like it’s a legacy that should be past on to generation to generation, especially this one. I have a lot of Greek mates and I love them dearly lets night fight lets have kebab.

[Stavros]

Turan,

On a person to person level, I don't believe most Greeks and Turks, especially the young, "hate" each other. Unfortunately, if it was just about history I would agree with you. Since you and your mates live in Australia you may not be as aware of some of the issues that divide us. Issues that are in the here and now, not the past.

I have two young sons as well that would probably agree with you, that history is boring and irrelevant. In time they may realize that those who forget their history are more apt to repeat it. I pray that you and your mates will live in a world in which you continue to love each other. In order to do so it means that we sometimes have to be willing to sacrifice some of the things we consider important and compromise. It is not as easy as it sounds.

[sezgi]

Actually, Greeks and Turks get along quite fine, not only in the nth generation but especially those presently from the respective neighbors. There will always be the token Greek or Turk attached to imaginary notions of racial pride (e.g. like the Greek dude still stuck on Alexander the Great who told me that I must surely be Greek from looking at my features and coloring, and when asked about the swarthier Greeks with black-hair replied "They are rape-seed," or like the funny Turkish dude who would check his "Turk bone" at the back of the head...). However, from both sides my observations (as well as first hand accounts from my Greek friends) are that Greeks and Turks feel closer to each other than to many, many other groups of people.

I know blue-eyed grandmothers with tearful childhood memories of escaping Yugoslavia near the turn of the last century. Why? Because they were Muslim; because there was war. *That* time, no one discussed the Muslim casualties as well, and it was repeated less than a century later, only more poignantly. Amongst all of our faults, historic and present -- and I will grant you that we have some major flaws -- it really is true that the Turks have a certain way of dealing with *war* and close the battle's chapter once it is complete.

But, I suppose it is too much to expect for anyone to erase a memory, especially when the memory itself still lives in the world. And, Turkey is full of Greek memories. I don't know if Greece has any nostalgia for something Turkish, but maybe it is not really my place to wonder that.

In some sense, I feel myself to have aspects of both Turk and Greek within me, which certainly would not be entirely inconsistent with my likely genetic inheritance. There is something in me that needs the directness of nature, something raw, hard, calm, and absolute, which is Turkish. There is another thing that is smoother, liquid in my human relations, warm: and that feels somehow Greek in me. Both, however, have unrelenting endurance, something constant.

If it will be that Turks and Greeks will clash till the end, I will not be too surprised. But, somehow, I feel it to represent a deeper clash of human elements, a necessary conflict to maintain a balance so that neither element subsumes the other, but both retain their distinct qualities for all time to come. And, yet, by the same nature, I will still be attracted to that which is Greek, as what is Greek is often drawn to me and mine.

[Stavros]

Sezgi,

I'm not sure your definition of "fine" coincides with my definition of the word. Greek-Turkish relations are anything but fine. As I wrote in my post, on a people to people basis, Greeks and Turks are capable of co-existence. They have proved that in places like Cyprus and Constantinople, where they lived side by side for centuries. Unfortunately there are a number of political issues that not only divide us, they may eventually cause a war between the two countries.

I have never been one to dabble in racial purity however, Greeks and Turks, despite sharing things like food, music and a common humanity, are divided by significant cultural differences. That does not necessarily mean that they cannot live peacefully side by side, though it does explain, in part, why we are inclined to disagree so violently at times.

At the risk of offending any blue eyed grandmothers, the Muslim casualties that you refer to were the product of centuries of Ottoman subjugation and repression including a widespread effort to convert Christians to Islam. The effort to portray Muslims as innocent victims during the wars since the break-up of former Yugoslavia is also disingenuous. Everyone has blood on their hands. As for Turks being more capable of letting bygones be bygones and accepting the status quo, I think that is only when the status quo is to their liking.

I will agree wholeheartedly that Turkey is full of Greek memories, many good, some of which belong to members of my own family, living and dead. When I visited Turkey, some years ago I did not feel like a stranger, I felt a connection, perhaps because I was born there. I am reminded of a story my Uncle told me about his younger sister, my mother. She developed a life threatening skin infection that the doctors were unable to cure. An Orthodox priest was called in to pray for her as well. My distraught grandfather eventually sought out a well known and respected local holy man, a Turk, who was dressed in rags, to come to his home and pray for my mother who was getting worse by the day, running a high fever. He prayed quietly for her for hours, read from his tattered copy of the Koran and left without asking for either money or payment. My mother began to get better soon after and recovered her health. I'm not sure why I am telling you this story except to point out that we share the same God and he listens to our prayers even when they are coming from those we consider our adversaries.

For what it's worth, I hope your Turkish and Greek natures live within you harmoniously and in synergy.

[Manoug]

I thought I should add my two cents worth here. I am of mixed background Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Armenian. I was born and grew up in the states, and came to Australia when I was 21. My parents are from Istanbul, where there is an ever shrinking minority. There is one thing which is not put into perspective which is that Turks are invaders. They have "resentment?" for lands which were firstly occupied by them in barbaric fashion albeit long ago? All the land they retain had existing ancient civilizations millenias old. Kurdish nomads, Armenians, and Rum. The resentment of those thrown back out of Europe in an albeit crappy fashion was already initially demonstrated by the brutal treatment of Armenians, Italians, Jews and Greeks during the Genocide around 1915. Yes the Armenians under the influence of Russia and Europe did create problems. Only because all minorities under Turk power were not only treated as second class subservient so called pagan or gavur citizens, not able to take up government positions such as even a trash collector, or be an officer in service to the military and even subject to higher taxes. Turks only exist as a strong military power at present as puppets of the USofA to sustain their goals to destabalise and create a balance of power against Eastern Europe and the Middle East. Turkey is a nation which America is strategically using like Japan, and Israel. The recent occurrences in Iraq are an attempt at a newer partner. Regarding the pogrom of 1956 which someone mentioned, some city Turks protected our family. Others I know of had their houses broken into, mothers & daughters of close family were raped. Churches were vandalized, my moms school had a church which was demolished. When the Cypriot Greeks would kick up a fuss with Turks in Cyprus there would be trouble in Istanbul for Christians. My grandfather had farmland, and was held at knife point to give up his land under threat of three daughters, and his wife being attacked. My wifes family in Edirne, Turks continually took bits and pieces of. I know of now grown men who had their fathers slain by Turks to grab their farmland. This is not ancient history as some believe, and to top it off the Christian minorities ran away only to find Turks accepted peacefully everywhere with grudges about their nation not being accepted in the Euro union? Another thing is Turks were & many still are by and large uneducated, this ignorance instills an inferiority complex which encourages their brutality, and patriotic hatred. The so called democratic Turkish government uses censorship, propaganda, and terrorism to keep it's population dumb, and it's ignorant resentment and patriotism high just like in America. That is why on the whole I believe "we have difficulties getting along".

[Stavros]

Manoug,

Thanks for your comments

[kaya]

Sorry i find your post very biased.
First off, your accounts of Cyprus are completely incorrect. I served as a soldier on the island of Cyprus before turkey liberated the island in 74. Members of my family where killed because Greeks bombed schools and hospitals, they committed many atrocious war crimes on Cyprus. It was a bloody battle. EOKA was a terrorist group backed by the Greek government and Makarious, who killed countless Turks and British people in an attempt to ethnically cleanse the island in order to join the island with Greece. Yes, Turks also commited war crimes and human rights violations during the strife, but i find it upsetting how the Turks always seem to be betrayed as the evil ones. As gaurentee power, Turkey liberated the island by saving the Turkish minority that was under constant military attack by Greeks, using legal means. I was there and fought side by side with my Turkish officials. Turkeys intervention was its right, as a guarantee power, through treaty and international legitimacy. Why it is conveyed as an invasion, one shall never know.

I nonetheless, despite your articles biased tendency, thankyou for posting this article. However, you insist the Turkish government is some de facto terrorist one like Hamas that enforces propaganda and denies education to Turks. Poverty is the cause of a lack of education in some eastern provinces, the secular government is of no relevance. I wish some day a strong leader can take turkey by the reigns and reinforce ataturks image of a turkey integrated with Europe, and a protector of the west, where our human rights come first, and our nationalist greed is denounced. Thankyou.

[kaya]

"However, you insist the Turkish government is some de facto terrorist one like Hamas that enforces propaganda and denies education to Turks."

Excuse me for not stating, but this comment was directed at Manoug.

[Stavros]

Kaya,

Please excuse the delay in responding. I usually don't wait this long but I didn't want my response to be an emotional one.

I'm not sure that I can say very much that would change the way you and many others, like you, see the world. There are two sides to every conflict and how we see things really depends on where we sit.

The population of Cyprus before 1974 was 80% Greek. If the Greek objective had ever been to annihilate the Turkish population it would not have been hard given the numerical advantage that they enjoyed. In fact, the partition of the island was a foreign policy goal of the Turkish government and they fomented much of the troubles in Cyprus through the TMT, a terrorist organization if ever there was one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Resistance_Organization

Unfortunately, Turkish Cypriots now find themselves living in abject poverty, like many of their mainland counterparts, in a pseudo-state run by a corrupt military. Be careful what you wish for you may just get it.

The Turkish government would make Hamas seem like a collection of pathetic amateurs when it comes to the application of terror for political purposes such as ethnic cleansing. Ask the Armenians, the Greeks, the Assyrians, or the Kurds. I do not consider Turks evil, just some of their past and recent behavior.

I would welcome Turkey's integration into the West but not until it acts like a country willing to live at peace with its neighbors instead of pushing them around like some neighborhood bully. I don't think that Turks need a strong leader. What they need is more democracy and human rights.

Thank you for taking the time to comment.

[kaya]

Thankyou for your reply stavros,

But i find it hard to believe you cannot recognize that Greeks commited just as much atrocities, if not more, during the '74 intervention. Makarious and the mainland was a supporter of Greek terrorist groups against the Turks mainly EOKA. As i said, i was there when the Greeks tried to rid the island of the Turkish minority to unify the island with Greece under Enosis. I have lived here since the war. I also recognize the fact that Taksim was a Turkish ideology, a violent one at that, much like ENOSIS. But being as unbiased as i possibly can, i find it evident that those who cannot admit that both sides where equally at fault and committed war crimes clearly do not know the complete history, or the facts, of the conflict in Cyprus.
I live in North Cyprus, in Girne (Kyrenia), i have traveled the country. I have also been to the Greek side; Larnaca, Paralymni, the Greek side of Nicosia etc etc. But during my entire time here, i have never seen abstract poverty, or bad standards of living on the North side. In fact its very respectful living standards, i have only ever seen poverty in villages a few select times. I welcome you to come to the North side and visit it, and see for yourself. No good saying it has much poverty unless one comes to the country and analysis it for himself. Greeks are more than welcome here (mind you your American so you should have no problem), the way they have welcomed and continue to welcome me on the South when i go shopping in Carrefour.
And im glad you welcome Turkey's integration, the way the mainland Greek government has also said to support Turkey in its EU membership bid, and i recognize Turkey's problems and Hamas like actions in the past. But thats just it. The past, the distant past. And i do hope Stavros that they do reform in order to avoid such treacherous recurrences, and they will. I just think Cyprus is a very tricky subject, and i fully support both Cypriot leaders in there bid for a bizonal, bicommunal cyprus. Lets look to the future now, and forget the past. If we dont, then we will never reach a solution. I am willing to forget, because i know both Greeks and Turks, traditonally and culturally, i very similar, and to see the two fight over a matter that occurred 30 odd years ago is a burden for us all.
Again, thank you for your article, and long live Cyprus. I think its seen enough blood over the past few centuries.

[kaya]

I would just like to add, i just properly read your first paragraph, quote:

"Please excuse the delay in responding. I usually don't wait this long but I didn't want my response to be an emotional one. "

Believe me, its an emotional topic for all, especially those who where there as you can imagine, so please excuse me if i insulted you. Im merely expressing and showing to you the other side of the conflict, as you said, there are always two sides of a war.

I would just like to add i enjoy your GreekOdyssey blog, and i have grown fond of your site and its many posts. Its irritating mind you; i am a fluent speaker in Greek, just i never have brought myself to be able to learn to read it, so thank you for translating most of the Greek you include in your posts!

My best wishes to you Stavros,

Kaya

[Stavros]

Kaya,

You didn't insult me. I don't think either one of us can be unbiased on this subject nor do I buy for a minute your contentions, which I believe to be erroneous. We could spend hours on this subject and we would be no closer to a resolution one way or another. I too would like to put the past aside, to move on, however, remembering the past is essential. Otherwise we run the risk of repeating it.

I pray that that Greek and Turkish Cypriots will find a just solution. I worry that your military leaders will never allow it. I will only consider visiting occupied Cyprus when its former Greek inhabitants have their property returned to them and they are allowed to return to their rightful homes.

I will defer to your assessment of the economic situation, after all you live there, although even you must admit that your half of Cyprus doesn't come close to matching the economic vitality of the "other" half.

Thank you for your comments and the way they are offered. I am surprised to hear that you enjoy reading MGO, I'm sure it can be quite irritating at times but hopefully in a good sort of way. I wish I could write a post in Turkish. My parents left Turkey when I was five years old so I never learned the language.

Best wishes to you and your family.

[Dmetri]

I have an answer to this post. But it is too long, detailed, complex and contradictory to go into here. If you are interested in hearing what I have to say, may I draw your attention to a memoir about growing up Greek in Turkey in the 1960s called 'Mother Land', by Dmetri Kakmi. It was published by Giramondo Publishing in Australia. The British edition is coming out in August 2009 and the Turkish edition, called Anayurt, is soon to be released.

[Stavros]

Dmetri,

It sounds like an interesting book and I have added it to my reading list for obvious reasons.

An interview of Dmetri Kakmi is here:

http://www.readings.com.au/interview/dmetri-kakmi

[James Bond]

Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Sorry Kaya, but you are the pot calling the kettle black. It is the turks (not all, but many of them, including the government) who deny any wrongdoing and refuse to recognize the atrocities they committed. At least the german government and most germans have fessed up to their actions in WWII.

Like a previous poster said, we should learn from the past and not let it spoil the future, but you can't expect the victims and descendents to just simply forget everything.

Lastly, even now, the Turks are actively erasing any trace of the original inhabitants of anatolia (contrary to what the whore Halide Edip preached, turks were not the original inhabitants). William Darlymple's book is a good one on this subject ("from the holy mountain).

Not to mention those 3 protestants who were tortured and killed.

[Christine Toskos]

I want to know if EOKA was a terrorist group what was Moussafa Kemel Auturk who murdered 4 million Orthodox Christians from 1914 to 1923. Who is the barbarians? EOKA who wanted the British to keep their promise to reunite Cyprus with their Motherland GREECE or the Turks who are nothing but terrorists against civilization!

[petros]

i attended grade school in greece.we were reminded daily to never forget that constantinople was ours and to go and liberate it.unfortunately,because of poverty we left greece.now,i believe in peaceful coexistese.however,it is not possible until
the turks become civilized and allow freedom of religion and respect minority rights.

[Claudio_V]

Seriously, how can any one group, barring the sue of force, threaten a civilization as influential and established as the Greek one? The laws of hospitality decree the host must be welcoming, but the guest, or eventual permanent resident, is also obligated to respect the new found customs.

"when in Rome, do as the Romans do..."And where do you think the Romans got that notion?

Great website. Keep civilization alive!

[petros]

i could not said it any better,thank you claudio v.

[Roland]

This is a bit of a problem you leave out.
Greeks have always been treacherous towards fellow Christian peoples and allies.
Especially the Latin Kingdoms that came to aid you against the Turks over the centuries.
This treachery eventually cost the Greeks most of there homeland.

[Stavros]

Constantinople fell twice, once to the Latins and finally to the Turks.

It experienced first hand the brutality of the western crusaders who in 1203 had sacked the city in one of the greatest atrocities in history, magnified several-fold by the immense cultural and intellectual loss in what was one of the great centers of world civilization. This shocking act of barbarism surpassed the sacking of Rome by the Goths or the, relatively humane, in comparison, subsequent sacking of Byzantium by the Turks. Here is how it was recorded by one Byzantine historian:

"No one was without a share in the grief. In the alleys, in the streets, in the temples, complaints, weeping, lamentations, grief, the groaning of men, the shrieks of women, wounds, rape, captivity, the separation of those most closely united. Nobles wandered about ignominiously, those of venerable age in tears, the rich in poverty. Thus it was in the streets, on the corners, in the temple, in the dens, for no place remained unassailed or defended the suppliants. All places everywhere were filled full of all kinds of crime. Oh, immortal God, how great the afflictions of the men, how great the distress!"

The Byzantine historian Nicetas Koniates wrote: "even the Muslims are human and well-disposed, compared to those people who carry the cross of Christ on the shoulders"

“Better the Sultan’s turban than the cardinal’s hat”