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30 September 2007

Comments

Scruffy

Hi Stavro,

Good article. Next time I'm by the Greek-American Soldier Monument in the Katehaki military park, I'll salute the statue and hum a few bars.

Stavros

Hi Scruff,

Glad to hear from you. Here's something I wanted to share with you and others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6_3iR0cJZA

Semper Fi

Margaret

Stavros,

Thank you for the link. I wish we did things like that here - the smile on the woman's face says how much our troops would appreciate it if we did.

I guess most of the time the arrivals are invisible, at military bases, and the individual soldiers disperse and nobody notices the single uniform on a train. We live quite close to a garrison so get used to seeing young men in uniform on their way somewhere. I dont' think we often wonder where they are going.

Stavros

Margaret,
Do you remember the wild boisterous reception that the ships returning from the Falklands got from assembled civilians waiting at the docks?

Maybe their present apathy has something to do with the unpopularity of the Iraq War. I think if people are upset about policies they should direct their discontent to the policymakers not the troops who are merely instruments of the national will.

The war is not popular in the US however, it seems some Americans learned something from their previous shabby treatment of Vietnam veterans.

Margaret

I wrote something (22/9 and 23/9) but having thought about it more, it is partly to do with how the troops return home too, not that we don't care. It is much easier to welcome an aircraft carrier saiing into dock than a plane arriving at a remote RAF base. I think the army could do a lot more to improve the reception, raise the profile. At least (until after Christmas) parcels to troops are free of postage ... a small step, but it took a dedicated mother to shame the Post Office into doing it. Even then, it's not the government that is footing the bill, but it does show that one passionate person can make a big difference to lots of people's lives.

Stavros

Margaret,

"one passionate person can make a big difference to lots of people's lives."

It never ceases to amaze me how true this particular statement happens to be.

victor

hi. interesting article about the 1805 marine assault on the barbery pirates. just curious, if i remember reading correctly, the 40 europeans were albanian refugees from italy. these men had previously fled from their ottoman ruled homeland albania. these men were chosen by the marines for their physical ability, bravery and, more important,for their loyalty. any thoughts?

victor

Stavros

Victor,

Thanks for setting me straight. I should have known that these guys were Albanians. I think Christopher Columbus was Albanian too and Alexander the Great was a Macedonian.

It is quite possible that these guys were Souliotes, as Professor Pomiades points out, who can be mistaken for Arvanites or Orthodox Albanians. The Arvanites fought valiantly, by the way, for Greek Independence while Muslim Albanians were the Ottoman Sultan's most accomplished hit men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souliotes

William Eaton himself refers to them as Greeks. Maybe he is wrong and you and other historical revisionists are right.

victor

hello again. i sense that my doubts to your claim that these men were greeks has caused some sarcasm. if there is doubt, there cannot be fact, only "mythology"... christopher columbus?(which i admire by the way) not albanian. maybe jewish, heck, probably even greek. not albanian.... alexander the great of macedon? great, yes, albanian? no...wheather he was greek by blood or by naturalization is irrelevent also. he was greek because he said so.
i agree with professor pomiades. souliotes could be mistaken for albanians. i must also add that albanians could and have been known to be mistaken for greeks. as greeks have been mistaken for albanians.
so do you agree with me that there is a possibility of a mistake here.
you also mentioned the arvanites (albanians)fighting valiantly for greek independence. i commend them for that. so choose one thing...call them albanian or arvanites....because if you call them arvanites then you should call the muslim albanian hitmen muslim arvanites hitmen.

with honest and friendly debate,

victor

Stavros

Victor,

All the historical evidence points in one direction, that this group of fighters were ethnic Greeks. The only question is where they were from.

If you read the link I gave you carefully it provides ample evidence that Souliotes were considered ethnic Greeks, even by their enemies.

Arvanites, many of whom settled in Greece, were Orthodox Christians who spoke Albanian. Here's another helpful link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

Muslim Albanians are not Arvanites. Unlike the Arvanites, Muslim Albanians were active participants in the Ottoman Army.

We can choose to continue this "friendly" debate indefinitely. It seems that you have an underlying agenda, why not just come out and say what you really mean. Albanians have some history of their own, no need to try to hijack the history of others.

victor

good morning. well that goes with out saying. of course albanians have some history of their own, they did'nt just come down from heaven, although some albanians would have you believe that.
i dont recall any albanian hijacking anything. thats some interesting trivia, i would love to know who was the first group to start bombing, hijacking and terrorizing people for political purposes?
i do support you when you mention those albanian fanatics who actively aided in the ottoman oppression for hundreds of years; along with those ottoman albanians were those ottoman greeks and slavs and so on and so on... just curious, does anybody have any numbers on the greece and turkey christian-muslim exchange back in the day.
sorry for taking up your time with all this writing, but lets get back to the question at hand. so you say that it is 100% fact that those men were ethnic greeks?

good day, no hidden agenda, victor

anton

nothing to say about. hehe

Devrim

Greece in 1805 didn't exist as a country but they were still subjects of the Ottoman Empire. The incident written here was a result of an agreement between the Us and the Ottoman Empire and is the only agreement that the US has signed in a foreign language since the Sultan of Turkey rejected to sign any agreement that is not written in Turkish.

Regards...

Stavros

Devrim,

Perhaps you have confused the Greek state with the Greek people. The Greek people occupied what became the Ottoman Empire including its capital, Constantinople, long before the nomadic tribes that established it.

The Greeks who fought besides the American Marines did so as free men exercising their free will, despite the fact that they may have been unwilling subjects of the Ottomans.

Actually the language of the treaty was Arabic. The Barbary states although nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, were independent Muslim states since the 17th century.

Warm regards to you as well.

Mark

"Perhaps you have confused the Greek state with the Greek people."

You mean Greek people, people or Orthodox Greeks, meaning Orthodox Bulgarians, Romanians and Albanians, until the national churches were formed? You see, before nationalism you only had Turks (all Muslims) Greeks (all Orthodox) and Latins (all Catholics). So a Bulgar Orthodox was not called a Bulgar, but a Greek in Turkish times. The same for Arvanites.

As for the 'Arvanites,' do you call Greek Romans or just Greeks? See, 'Greeks' only existed as Orthodox, otherwise you were called Romans before modern Greece was formed. You only saw yourself as Christians in the Ottoman empire. I know it sucks that your heroes are Albanians (whether they or you admit it or not) but it's a little too late to change history. Yeah, they are Greeks that just so happened to hold on to the Albanian language and custom for 1200 years! Ha!

P.S. Most Orthodox Greeks helped the Turks, in fact only a few thousands joined the fight against the Turks. Your church leaves that out and their 400 year collaboration with the Turks.

Mark

"Arvanites, many of whom settled in Greece, were Orthodox Christians who spoke Albanian."

Spoke or were Albanians??? Hahahaha the gymnastics you go through not to admit the truth.

"Muslim Albanians are not Arvanites. Unlike the Arvanites, Muslim Albanians were active participants in the Ottoman Army."

First, Arvanite now means medieval Albanian, a name for Albanians in Greece. Turks called us Arnaut, others were called Arbereshe. The same exact thing, and not related to religion.

Second, Arvanites and Sulitoes were at least in Ali Pasha's service way more than once--and against him more than once at times. Your view is clouded by the stupid and revisionist Greek and church propaganda: Good vs Bad and Greeks always on the good side and always planning as Hellenes to be free. 99% of 'Greeks' had no clue about Pericles and Sparta, they were just a mixture of Orthodox Vlach, Albanians and Slavs trying to make ends meet. Google this sentence and see what they thought of 'Greeks' pre-hellenism indoctrination:

""..The love for Greece has been brilliantly characterized by Woodhouse (British servant during Greek independence war): "They loved the Greece of their dreams: the land, the language, the antiquities, but not the people. If only, they thought, the people could be more like the British scholars and gentlemen; or failing that, as too much to be hoped, if only they were more like their own ancestors; or better still, if only they were not there at all""

Do you know that even the Hydra Albanian Arvanites helped the Turks at times for money, despite being with the Greeks during the revolution? Not to mention that the Greek Church in exchange for a fee, helped keep the Greeks in place and collect the Turkish taxes for 400 years. Priests were robbed by the Armatoloi all the time. So wake up, stop reading nonsense and open your yes. Odds are that you have 10 more times Albanian, Vlachs or Turkish blood than that of ancient Greeks.

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