The Pontic Greek Genocide

To remember does not mean stirring up hatred within or without. Hatred destroys what was good and pure in the past and the present. It simply means to embrace what is ours' 

                           Thea Halo, author of "Not Even My Name"

The Turkish Government reacted sharply to the recent dedication of the  Pontic Hellenism Genocide monument which was opened recently in Thessaloniki to  mark the genocide's anniversary.  Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesperson Namik Tan said that " so-called Pontic genocide"  lacks historical and scientific evidence. “We suggest that Greek authorities and scholars evaluate the historical events objectively instead of using such expressions that can damage relations between our two countries,” said Tan. “We want to again reiterate that this step, which became a fodder for feeble arguments, isn’t in line with the spirit of the cooperation and dialogue we’re trying to develop.” 

May 19th marked the 87th anniversary of the Pontian genocide that occurred in present day Turkey.  Between 1916 and 1923 over 300,000 Pontic Greeks living in along the Black Sea coast and Asia Minor were systematically exiled or killed along with one and a half million Armenians and 700,000 Assyrians Christians.    The Pontic people lived in Turkey from ancient times for over 3000 years and are descendants of Greek colonists who arrived there long before the ancestors of present day Turks. The Turks, under the founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, pursued a deliberate policy of "Turkey for the Turks."  It was adopted against the backdrop of the Greek occupation of parts of Asia Minor as spelled out in the Treaty of Versailles.  Its purpose was to rid Turkey of its Greek, Armenian and Assyrian Christians. The resulting Greek-Turkish War of 1919-1922 and the defeat of the Greek Army sounded the death knell for Christian minorities in Turkey. The process began with Christian owned businesses being boycotted, leading to bankruptcies and confiscation of property.  Eventually intellectuals and community leaders were rounded up and executed. One of the methods used in the elimination of the Greek population was the "labor battalions."  In them, mostly young and stronger people were captured and forced to do exhausting slave labor by the Turkish State, in order to reconstruct areas destroyed during the war. Some were sent to concentration camps and amongst the survivors was the well known writer, Elias Venezis, who later described his experiences in his book  "Number  31328." Thousands died of exhaustion, starvation and dehydration on forced marches.  This effective method was used by the Turks  to force the weaker population, including women and children, to walk for hundreds of kilometers until they died. This was known as the "Light Death."   

These tragic events were recorded by American, as well as the German and Austrian diplomats of the time.  Unlike Germany which has taken responsibility for its sins committed in World War II, Turkey still refuses to even admit that these events occurred, let alone apologize for the genocide and ethnic cleansing it inflicted on a helpless population. Not only were the people expunged from Turkey, so too were any traces of their existence. Admitting guilt would entail casting a shadow on Kemal Ataturk.  Ataturk is revered and represents the heart and soul of the modern Turkish ethos of who they are as a nation. The present Turkish government has gone to extraordinary lengths to quash any attempt to publicize these events throughout the world, including keeping their own people ignorant of their history. To do so would require a reexamination of the very foundation on which the modern Turkish State is built.  As a Friend of mine was fond of saying: "Folks it ain't gonna happen." Interestingly, the Kurds, fellow Muslims were active participants and abetted this genocide but now find themselves in a reversal of roles.  They have become the target of draconian assimilationist policies designed to suppress their identity and language.

If you would like to learn more, read Thea Halo's book: "Not Even My Name" about her mother's own odyssey and survival during the Pontic genocide. It is a powerful reminder of a history that cannot and should not be erased from human memory.  The following are excerpts from a recent interview. Her words say it much better than I can:

"The sad thing is that they lost so much, because the Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians had so much culture there. They brought so much vibrancy to the country that was lost. They were wonderful artisans, intellectuals, teachers, musicians. At the time, there were Europeans who were saying "What in the world will Turkey do without the Christians?" After all, it was the Christians who were the intellectuals and business people, who had the education to help Turkey progress into the 20th century. When Turkey got rid of the Christian populations, they set themselves back, way-way back. The general Turkish population was not well educated at that time, because the Turkish government didn't bother to educate them the way the Christian
missionaries educated the Christian populations. For the most part, the government wouldn't allow Muslims to attend the Christian schools, for fear of conversion, so most Turks of the time remained peasants and farmers. Consequently, the Turks did themselves a great disservice, because the removal of the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians left a great vacuum in Turkey...... Almost every ancient culture has this attachment to the land. What else is there without a place to call home? When I stood on that land, for the first time in my life I could actually feel my ancestors, my grandparents. They became real to me for the first time. They were as much a
part of that land as the trees, the rocks, the grasses. Their blood and sweat is mingled with the earth for thousands of years. How can one walk away from that without feeling that a part of oneself is somehow left behind, somehow missing, like an amputated leg or arm that continues sending out sensations to the brain, even though it's gone? Just the other day my mother said to me, "you know, when you are born in a country, there is a part of you that always feels that that country is your true home."

Read the entire interview.

The Pontic plight, just like the Asia Minor Catastrophe and the Greek-Turkish War of 1919-1922, are periods of modern Greek History that speak to who we are as Greeks, no matter where we live.  Those that do not  know what history teaches us are doomed to repeat it

Lest we forget.

Comments

[Ted Laskaris]

"Lest we forget." Stavros, thank you for publishing this piece. As a descendant of Pontic Greeks, who lost everything including several members of the immediate family to Ottoman Turkish genocide, I say "Never Forget" and I personally will never forgive.

The Greek government has been mushy, to say the least, in pushing for international recognition of the Pontic Greeks plight. This is not surprising; official Greece these days has an aversion to anything that touches upon the immense sufferings of the Greek Nation.

Getting into bed with Turkey on the EU bid remains the worst insult to all our dead, including our latest, Group Captain Eliakis. With the current crop of "politicians" at the helm, I see little hope of things changing. Our only avenue is to lobby and protest at the grass roots level, and expose the Greek government's reluctance to recognize our history and the immense sacrifices of our ancestors.

[Aritomachos Ops]

Hello, here are two videos on the Pontian and other Hellenic Genocides.

http://www.kryphoscholio.com/istoria/hellenicgenocide_el.html

http://www.kryphoscholio.com/istoria/hellenicgenocide_en.html

[John Anagnostis]

Stavros,

You have done some wonderful work with this blog. I don't know if I told you but my mother came from Smyrna with my grandmother's family.
There is another book called "1822" that is good reading.

[Jim Agoritsas]

Great Blog....you have put alot of thought and effort and should be commended for offering 'something of substance'

jim and Julie Agoritsas

[Jean Shawn]

You are so sad.

Out of nowhere, after decades of silence, the false issue of 'hellenic genocide' is brought up by the Greeks. Tell me, you didn't get 'inspired' by the Armenian diaspora and the false armenian genocide allegations, did you? Why don't you mention the 2 MILLION Turks killed by the Greeks and its allies during the war? Ashamed?

As long as you Greeks and the Turks don't realize that Turkey and Greece should be one of the 'best-friend' nations in this world, culturally, economically and geologically, both countries' futures are doomed with failure.

Instead of sending warplanes over to Turkish airspace (or Greek airspace?), accusing them of a falsified genocide, supporting PKK terrorism in Turkey, you should start embracing them. I've travelled to both countries and it is sad to see that no Turk talks badly about Greece, but 75% of greek people hate Turks.

[Stavros]

Jean, its not about hatred its about remembrance. Just because folks like you don't remember or even care, doesn't mean folks like me have to forget. My family lived in Turkey for many years, I was born there and we were never taught to hate Turks. As a matter of fact, Greeks are much more tolerant of the Turks in their midst. Read the post entitled "A Tale of Two Communities." I gather from your tone and your level of historical accuracy that you are neither willing to learn or listen.
The Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek Genocides are well documented as is the current repression of Kurds in Turkey. The Turkish government does its very best to keep the historical record closed to its own people and to the world. Many Turks of good conscience have been prosecuted by the State for speaking out and telling the truth. I suggest you open your mind and at least read Thea Halo's book. Greeks would love to have good relations with their neighbor. What they are not willing to do is cower. It's rather hard to get along when you live next to an expanionist, aggressive, repressive country run by the military under the guise of a democracy. If Turkey wants to be a Western nation and an ally, it should start to act like one.

[demonax]

What a scandalous calumny on the great peace-adoring Greek people, who love the whole of humanity and trees and flowers and everything wholesome and cute to claim they killed 2 MILLION turks.
Anyone who knows anything about history knows these 2 MILLION turks died in a mass suicide pact.
There is another theory I was taught at Greek school – that it was a mass outbreak of food poisoning that caused 2 MILLION turks to die, but I think this is an outrageous slur on turkish cuisine and turkish chefs – who we all know are unsurpassed geniuses who saved humanity with their stuffed aubergines (eggplants) and I don't believe it. Mass suicide, definitely.

[Jean Shawn]

Stavros,

You're either a really nice person, or you're very naive, or you are politically inclined and motivated against Turkey. Anyone who knows a bit about history between the two nations and the recent developments between the two countries would laugh at your comments saying: "Greeks are much more tolerant of the Turks in their midst. Greeks would love to have good relations with their neighbor".

As the Greek ex-PM Costas Simitis nicely explained in his speech yesterday (please go ahead and read it in full), all Greece and the Greek-Cypriots want these days is to take full advantage of Turkey's EU membership talks. As the Greeks are fully aware, if Turkey backs-out or is forced-out of the EU membership talks, it will be very tough for Greece to achieve its ultimate goals of making the Aegean Sea a private Greek sea, and making the Greek-Cypriots the (politically and economically) dominant ethnicity on the island.

And to call Turkey a 'an expanionist, aggressive, repressive country'. What exactly is 'expanionist' about Turkey? I'd like to remind you that Greece was 'saved' from its own repressive and military dictatorship (that lead the coup against President of Cyprus Makarios II in 74) by Turkey's intervention on Cyprus in 1974.

But as with much of everything else, Greece and the Greek-Cypriots managed to rewrite history and showed themselves as the victims of the 1974 intervention. No one ever mentions the atrocities carried out by the Greeks against the Turkish Cypriots before the 1974 invasion. How did that happen Stavros?

If you're really about the unity of the two nations, why don't you write about the atrocities carried out by the Greeks and Greek-Cypriots against the Turks in your blog as a new post? Why not be impartial for a change? Why not post about the PKK terrorism support by the Greek government? I mean, you should know by now that several dozen PKK terrorist were caught by Greek passports on them right? Or the CIA reports that indicate that PKK receives training in CIA? Do I have to point you to the sources?

Let's be true to the truth for a change.

Regards,

[Stavros]

Jean, Welcome back.

I wish Greeks and Turks could just hold hands and sing Kumbaya, alas I fear that until Turks make long lasting and significant changes in their so-called democracy, that will be quite difficult. Let's review the record.
The Turkish minority in Greece has grown and prospered, it is represented in Parliament. The Greek minority in Turkey is almost non-existent. Case closed.

Cyprus, a island where 80% of the population is Greek, was invaded by Turkey which occupied almost half the island and populated the occupied lands with Turkish settlers from the Mainland. I'd say that has an "expansionist" ring to it.

With hundreds of GREEK islands in the Aegean, it is a "Greek lake." Greece does not need anyone's approval to make it so.

As for the dominant ethnicity in Cyprus it has always been the Greek majority. That majority lived peacefully side by side with the Turks until Great Britain and Turkey started meddling in Cypriot affairs.

Turkey has been a sponsor of State terrorism aginst Kurds, Greeks, Turks Greek and Turkish Cypriots. It sponsored the Turkish Resistance Organization in Cyprus which targeted Turks as well as Greeks. The Turkish government terrorized its own citizens of Greek origin in 1955 in Istanbul during the riots it engineered. Most recently the Turkish Army Chief of Land Forces, General Yasar Buyukanit, was implicated by a Turkish prosecutor in the direction of terrorist activities against the Kurdish minority.

Turkey's expansionism is not a figment of my imagination.

In fact, Turkey has always planned the invasion in Cyprus and the "taksim" (partition) of the island, prior to 1974. In 1939, soon after the annexation of Hatay, a predominantly Syrian city, Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey stated: "The turn of Cyprus has not yet come".

In 1956 the Turkish-Cypriot leader F. Kutchuck submitted on a map taksim proposals dividing Cyprus to North and South. The 1974 Turkish invasion deviated from the 1956 plan only in minor details. Turkish-Cypriot leader Denktash himself said: "Even if the Turkish-Cypriots did not exist, Turkey would not have left Cyprus to Greece."

As for the PKK, it is a direct result of Turkish policies designed to repress and disrupt the creation of a Kurdish national home. Its existence is unrelated to any Greek assistance it may have received in the past. It is a terrorist organization whose actions I abhor and unfortunately it has gotten support from leftist elements in Greece as well as Europe. Perhaps Turkey needs to reassess its approach to its indigenous people.

Lastly, Jean I surmise that you are neither Greek or Turkish, probably British or European. If that is the case, be careful what you wish for. When Europe accepts Turkey into the EU, as you and Costas Simitis so fervently pray for, then Europe will own Turkey's significant problems.

[demonax]

Excellent riposte, Stavros. You hit the nail right on the head.
I can never take the arguments of the Turks seriously.
To paraphrase Castoriadis, the Turks suffer from unbelievable self-mythologisation, presenting themselves as history's eternal victims when all the evidence points to the opposite; to the Turks being responsible for some of the most barbaric deeds known to mankind.
Dostoevsky refers to the Turks as 'savage beasts' and: 'This nation, steeped in lies and villainy, that denies the atrocities it has committed.'
The Russian said this in 1877. Since then, there's been the genocide of the Armenians, the Assyrians, the Pontic Greeks, the Greeks of Asia Minor, Constantinople, Imvros, Tenedos, the invasion and occupation of Cyprus and so on. Atrocity after atrocity, all of which the Turks steadfastly deny.
Whether the Turks accept their tendency to barbarism and show penitence and a willingness to become civilised is entirely up to them. I don't care. Let them continue with their absurd theories in which, by some extraordinary interpretation of history, they are the real victims. My main concern is that Greece continues to recognise what sort of creature it has on its doorstep and never lets its guard down.

[Kosta]

Jean,

I am not sure if you are serious or not as you seem to be rather uninformed about the real history of this region.

For starters, let's throw away ALL sources of genocide by Greeks and Armenians (though to disregard those sources is like disregarding sources like Elie Weisel on the Jewish Holocaust).

Let's start with the following sources.
Ambassador Morgenthau's story by Henry Morgenthau (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1419105728/sr=8-1/qid=1150775550/ref=sr_1_1/002-6183987-5872008?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

Now one argument used by the Turks was that Morgenthau did not travel to eastern Turkey where the genocides took place. This is true. However, in addition to the conversations he had with members of the Ottoman government, he also did receive reports from American consulates stationed in different parts of the Ottoman Empire where the eradication of the Christian minorities took place.

Another excellent source is George Horton's "The Blight of Asia: An Account of the Systematic Extermination of Christian Populations by Mohammedans and the Culpability of Certain Great Powers; With the True Story of the Burning of Smyrna".
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/190365615X/qid=1150775701/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6183987-5872008?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

One thing that makes this source so particularly powerful is that Mr. Horton would not accept testimony from any Greek or Armenian for events he did not witness himself.

Lastly, I would like to offer you a source from a Turkish author. Please see Taner Akcam's "From Empire to Republic: Turkish Nationalism and the Armenian Genocide"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1842775278/qid=1150775934/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-6183987-5872008?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

You mention Cyprus and refer to the communal violence. Let's be fair however. It was the Turkish community that started the violence in 1958. The Greeks at that point where struggling for independence against the British. With regards to the reasons for the invasion of 1974, I would recommend a book from a pair of British authors: Brendan O'Malley's and Ian Craig's "The Cyprus Conspiracy: America, Espionage and the Turkish Invasion."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1860647375/sr=8-1/qid=1150776270/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6183987-5872008?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Read this book and you will better understand why Cyprus was so strategically important at the time in which the Soviets surpassed the United States in nuclear strike capabilities.

I would also recommend Christopher Hitchens' "Cyprus" as well which is difficult to find these days.

May I ask you, do you believe Armin Wegner's photographs on the Armenian genocide are all fakes?

As far as Greece and the Greeks on Cyprus using the EU talks for their own "advantage" / ensuring their security, is that all that unreasonable? Does the fact that the so called government of the occupied region of Cyprus is only recognized by the country that invaded the island seem at all strange to you?

With regards to the treatment of Greeks in Turkey vs. the treatment of Turks in Greece, I would like to point out this entry from a Turkish blog: http://istanbul.metblogs.com/archives/2005/09/smashing_the_me_1.phtml.

Can you provide any references to similar events in Greece against the Turkish minority?

What difference has there been between the growth of the respective minority populations in each country? Which has shrunk and which has grown?

Also, if you are serious about debating this topic, please provide some reputable sources.

Kosta

[Stavros]

Kosta, Well done and thanks for the links.

[Jean Shawn]

First of all, for us to participate in a meaningful discussion (and, in general, for Greeks to participate in negotiations with Turkey), you people need to stop writing and saying stuff like:

"...the Turks being responsible for some of the most barbaric deeds known to mankind.
...'savage beasts'... Whether the Turks accept their tendency to barbarism... Greece continues to recognise what sort of creature it has on its doorstep and never lets its guard down."

This kind of talk just shows the unwillingness of the Greek people to engage in discussions with Turkey. It is this kind of language and aggresiveness that weakens the Greek side of the arguments, because lets face it, the entire Europe knows that the Greeks are extremely prejiduced against Turkey. One reason that UK isn't as keen on interfering on the Greek-Turkish relations anymore is that Greece and Greek-Cypriots are very aggressive, un-cooperative and downright unreasonable when it comes to their dealings with Turkey and the Northern Cyprus. The Greek side can argue that they have 'all the reason and right' to be aggressive, but remember that so can Turks, therefore this kind of behaviour would then put a dent to what you're trying to achieve here.

Please accept the fact that Greek were never and still aren't 'snow white' when it comes to their dealings with Turks. You cannot convince anyone in Europe that the Cyprus problem started because Turks are 'savage beasts' and they are expansionists and they just wanted to invade the island in 1974. The Cyprus problem started because of the Greek side and snowballed from there onwards by any account of history. Could it be sponsored by CIA? Maybe. Could it be the work of other foreign intelligence and secret services? Certainly so. That doesn't change the fact that, in 1963, the Turkish Cypriots were ousted by force from all arms of the new Republic (which was formed just 3 years ago) by Greeks, illegally, against the founding agreements of the Republic, the Constitution and all international laws and agreements. Then followed the atrocities against the Turks by the nationalist Greek-Cypriots and then you know the rest of the story. I find it unbelievable when the Greek-Cypriot side claims that the first blood was shed by the Turkish side, when the Turkish side was outnumbered by about 5-to-1 with no arms and no military and no physical support from Turkey at that time.

Finally, please keep in mind that a lot of people's look at the Cyprus problem has changed two years ago where the Turkish side of the island voted a 'YES' to the UN led 'Annan plan', while the Greek-Cypriot side voted an overwhelming, screaming NO. You can't continue to fool all the people, all the time. Greece and Greek-Cypriots already lost credibility in Europe by proving beyond any doubt that they are not ready to enter into an arrangement with the Turkish side of the island. The UN Secretary-General summarized it very nicely to the Security Council two years ago: (S/2004/437): “If the Greek Cypriots are ready to share power and prosperity with the Turkish Cypriots in a federal structure based on political equality, this needs to be demonstrated, not just by word, but by action” (para.86)

I will be back in a few days to ask all of you a very important question, which no Greek friend of mine ever managed answer successfully.

Sincerely,

[Stavros]

Jean, "Us people" would appreciate "you people" not telling us people why we need to be more understanding when you people have so little of it. If the UK isn't keen on dealing with Greeks or Greek Cypriots I daresay they literally cringe at the thought of a second rate has been power like Britain sticking her nose where it has never belonged. Britain should bear at least some of the reponsibilty for the mess in Cyprus which is largely its own creation.

As for the Anan Plan, here's why it was dead on arrival:
* The Plan did not include a settlement regarding the repatriation of Turkish settlers living on Greek Cypriot owned land in the 'Northern Cyprus', while after 19 years, the possibility of abolishing the derogation of 5% of Greeks and Turkish citizens who could settle in Cyprus, is obvious, and the danger of a permanent mass settling of Cyprus by Turkey is visible.
* The Plan did not deal in full with the demilitarisation of the de facto 'TRNC', and Greek Cypriots felt they had no reason to believe Turkish promises concerning the withdrawal of troops.
* Many Greek Cypriots interpreted the Right of Return policy as to be seriously flawed, meaning only 20% of Greek Cypriot refugees would be able to return over a time frame of 25 years, whereas Turkish Cypriots would have had full right of return.
* Turkish Cypriots would have gained all the basic demands it made, from the first day of the implementation of the solution. To be exact, 24 hours after the holding of the referendum. In contrast, everything that the Greek Cypriots were aspiring to achieve, would have postponed without guarantees and depend upon the good will of Turkey to fulfil the obligations it undertakes. They are also subject to the precondition that all would have gone well.
* The return of the Turkish occupied land will take place in the period between three and a half months and three and a half years from the moment the solution is signed with no guarantees whatsoever that this shall be implemented. The Cypriot-Greek proposal of placing these areas under the control of the UN Peace Keeping Force and not the Turkish army has been rejected.
* The Plan did not address the issue of the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) on the island, although parts of the SBAs would be transferred to the governments of the two consituent states.
* The functional weaknesses of the Plan endanger, inter alia, the smooth activity and participation of Cyprus, with one voice, in the European Union. While the Greek Cypriots have with many sacrifices achieved Cyprus accession to the European Union, the Greek Cypriots could very easily be led to the neutralization of the accession until the adoption of all necessary federal and regional legal measures or the loss of the benefits of the accession or the facing of obstacles in Cyprus participation in the Economic and Monetary Union and other European institutions.
* The Economy of Cyprus would have been separate with the plan. There will be no common monetary, fiscal policy and no investments by Greek Cypriot businesses shall be allowed in the Turkish Cypriot constituent state.

FYI, Greek Cypriots don't have to kowtow to every UN proposal just because Kofi Anan put his name on it nor do they have to continue to give in to Turkish threats and demands. BTW, if I were a Turkish Cypriot, I too would want to be part of a United Cyprus and not a Turkish colony.

PS I must congratulate you. You are a great apologist for Turkey. Unfortunately, not a very good historian. Ever think of moving to the Turkish occupied area in Cyprus? I hear Brits like you can get former Greek Cypriot properties at bargain basement prices.

[demonax]

To have meaningful discussion with Turks requires that they accept their frequent decline into savagery. The Germans and Japanese have had to go through a process of reeducation, remorselessly examining their culture and national psychology to try and expunge those elements that may have prompted them to commit some of the worst crimes known to mankind; yet the Turks are unwilling, unable, to subject their culture, history, state, to such scrutiny, showing not only how little they are imbued with a democratic consciousness but also how little they can be trusted.

Of course, you are right, Stavros; Annan was a disgusting plan that would have legitimised the invasion and partitioning of Cyprus. Truly one of the most contemptible pieces of diplomacy in recent history (see Christopher Hitchens, 'Cyprus Betrayed' at: http://www.hitchensweb.com.

As for:
"In 1963, the Turkish Cypriots were ousted by force from all arms of the new Republic by Greeks. Then followed the atrocities against the Turks by the nationalist Greek-Cypriots. The Turkish side was outnumbered by about 5-to-1 with no arms and no military and no physical support from Turkey at that time."

this is a perfect example of Turkish self-mythologising which turns the truth on its head. From (at least) 1958, Turkish nationalists on the island – backed by Ankara with money, materiel and manpower and with the tacit support of the British – had been engaged in a violent campaign that often targeted Greek Cypriots – for example, the Gunyeli massacre – but had as its main aim the forcing of Turkish Cypriots to end all forms of cooperation and coexistence with Greek Cypriots, the physical separation of Turkish from Greek Cypriots and the setting up of a parallel state in preparation for partition – 'partition or death' being the adopted slogan of Turkish extremists on the island. What happened in 1963, far from being a Greek-engineered effort to exclude the Turks from the Cyprus Republic, was an outbreak of open rebellion by the Turkish Cypriots in pursuit of their strategy to end the unitary state and create the conditions for partition. (See Costas Yennaris, From the East: Conflict and Partition in Cyprus, http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904027067/qid%3D1150856924/202-1956109-5892628).

That there was fighting between Greeks and Turks on the island in the 1960s is undeniable, but to present the Turks as helpless victims is absurd. They did their fair share of bombing and killing. Their gangs of fanatics and psychopaths were just as ruthless as their Greek equivalents. Nevertheless, however nasty the fighting was in the 1960s, three things must be remembered.
1. It was small scale and cannot, for example, be compared to the Balkan wars of the 1990s. Most Greek and Turkish Cypriots continued their lives unaffected by the troubles. In fact, following independence, the island enjoyed unprecedented social and economic development.
2. From 1967 till the Turkish invasion, intercommunal fighting had died down and negotiations between the Greeks and the Turkish minority – between Denktash and Clerides – aimed at arriving at a more equitable and sustainable constitution than the one imposed in 1960 were reaching a conclusion.
3. Full-scale atrocities – massacre, rape, looting, ethnic cleansing – only arrived on the island with the Turkish army in 1974 and the victims of this were the Greek Cypriots.

As for the question you propose to ask, please don't ask it. All you've done so far is present us with the same old Turkish lies and propaganda. What do you think? That we've never heard them before and that you're somehow going to convince us of the righteousness of your case? The Turks are barbarians not just because of what they do and what they've done but also because of how they seek to justify or deny their actions. Turkish contempt for truth and history, their total failure to even countenance the legitimacy of alternative narratives, their inability to show remorse or repentance – which, admittedly, may be an Islamic and not just a national trait – shows what a threat this 'savage beast' (to quote Dostoevsky again, the writer who has revealed and shaped the modern Western imagination more than any other, so knows what he's talking about) poses not only to Greece but to the entire Western way of doing and being.

[Kosta]

Jean,

You disappoint me. With all due respect, I was hoping for some fact based arguments rather than your Turkic ramblings.

I could go on with regards to the appeasement of your government towards the Turks. Would the fact that BP is the major stakeholder in the BTC pipeline?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_Pipeline

I'm afraid you are dealing with a number of people here who are intimately knowledgeable on the history and current events of this region. There are plenty of non-Greek and Armenian sources that back up the facts we've provided. Please read Taner Akcem's book. It is a heavy read, but excellent.

Would you like to try again?

Kosta

[demonax]

Being a rather serious type, I'm not easily prone to full-blooded laughter but this piece in today's Turkish Daily News had me in stitches (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=46764).
I found the bit about "we teach our children about respect and love" particularly funny. I guess we had the Turks wrong all along: they're just a bunch of misunderstood flower children.

[Stavros]

I especially liked the Orthodox Church as the daggar pointed at Turkey's neck meme. Cute.

[Kosta]

Demonax,

Thanks for the link! That is real keeper! I shouldn't be laughing as it is so delusional, but I am.

Kosta

[Jean Shawn]

There are so many things to write about your replies, I don't even know where to start.

I guess today I shall start with your 'book recommendation', the one that was authored by 'Taner Akcam'.

You really should research your sources before 'recommending' them to other people. Here's a FACT for you: Taner Akcam is a convicted TERRORIST. Please read on.

Akcam was a strong leftist. His radicalism intensified while he studied at the Middle East Technical University in the early 1970s. Akcam moved from student activism into political terrorism by joining the THKP-C (Turkish People's Liberation Party-Front) in 1972--a terrorist organization that was implicated in the assassinations and killings of numerous far-right militants, Turkish security officials, and American and NATO military personnel. In the mid-1970s, Akcam became a leading member of DEV-YOL and the editor of its periodical Devrimci Genclik Dergisi (Revolutionary Youth Magazine). It might be recalled that DEV-YOL was one of the two principal leftist terrorist organizations (the other being DEV-SOL) that played a major role in the bloody escalation of political violence in Turkey during the 1970s. In the bizarre ideological divisions among the leftist groups that proliferated on the Turkish political scene at the time, DEV-YOL was known as following a "pro-Soviet" line in terms of its international loyalties. DEV-YOL's bloody terrorist activities, which claimed hundreds of fatalities and a large number of serious injuries, included assassinations, armed attacks, bombings, and bank robberies. The group also achieved notoriety when it set up a so-called "liberated zone" in the town of Fatsa on the Black Sea coast where DEV-YOL militants established their control for several months before being routed by the security forces.

During this period of heightened terrorism, Akcam was an active participant in the planning of assassinations and armed attacks against the targets chosen by DEV-YOL. He was in the inner leadership circle of the terrorist organization and worked as the right-hand man of its leader Oguzhan Muftuoglu. In addition, as the editor of DEV-YOL's magazine, he wrote numerous articles exhorting DEV-YOL militants to engage in violence to bring down "the oligarchy", to punish "the fascists", and to get rid of "American imperialism". By the mid-1970s, as political violence between the far-left and ultra-nationalist groups escalated, Akcam had become one of the leading "theoreticians" of leftist terrorism and violence in Turkey.

Taner Akcam was arrested in 1976. After a trial that lasted several months he was sentenced to eight years and nine months for his role in fomenting terrorism and political violence. However, Akcam did not stay in jail for long: in a spectacular incident that made the headlines in the Turkish press, he escaped from a prison in Ankara along with four other convicted terrorists in March 1977. After hiding in Turkey for several months, he managed to find his way to Germany where he asked--and received--political asylum.

Akcam who is affiliated with a German research center and claims a doctorate in history, has become the darling of the Armenian diaspora activists (and apparently the Greeks) in US and in Europe. He has been invited to the United States several times--all expenses paid by Armenian organizations--to give talks and participate in conferences. Currently, he is a "visiting scholar" at the Armenian Research Center (ARC) at the University of Michigan-Dearborn. The ARC serves as one of main mouthpieces of anti-Turkey Armenian propaganda in the U.S. Its Director, Dennis Papazian, is a well-known professional falsifier of history who has consistently denied that Armenians were involved in the deaths of thousands of Turks in Eastern Anatolia during World War I.

Moreover, Akcam, at one time, was going hand-in-hand with one of the worst terrorist organizations in the world, the PKK and its past leader, chief terrorist Abdullah Ocalan. Ocalan and Akcam now openly speak about this relationship, as evidenced by the Jan 2002 interview of Akcam in a Turkish daily newspaper. They both admit to working together in 73-75 as part of THKP-C, as TERRORIST THAT KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS!

So next time you cite a source, please do make sure that it is legit. If we all start reading the books and studying the idealogies of TERRORISTS, the world will not be a better place. Don't you agree? How would you feel if people go around and recommend books of Greece's worst criminals in history?

Sincerely,

[Bettsy Stewart]

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So next time you cite a source, please do make sure that it is legit. If we all start reading the books and studying the idealogies of TERRORISTS, the world will not be a better place. Don't you agree? How would you feel if people go around and recommend books of Greece's worst criminals in history?
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OK, so along these lines. Jean [Claude van] Shawn, we should definatley never adhere to the words of the butcher Kemal Ataturk. Not only should we not cite "terrorists" (your "proof" is off by the way), we should likewise not cite genocidal maniacs that happend to be leaders.

Then again, Turks seem to glorify genocidal leaders. The eros for Ataturk is only one example. The fact that "Mein Kampf" was recentley a best seller in Turkey is another example of the Turkish lust for leaders that love genocide.

We Hellenes and philHellenes know what the Turk is all about. 1974 is only one example of the most recent Turkish barbarism against the poor Hellenic souls of Cyprus. NEVER FORGET, that Demirel claimed that the Cypriot coup was an internal Greek affair, and did not seek Turkish assistance immediatley. Only after he got his ear tugged by the Turkish government did he allow Turkish forces to land.

What do you think of Speros Vryonis? His books on Turkey are AMAZING!!!

[Stavros]

Jean, The world according to right wing military dictadorships and their propaganda machine is not exactly a reliable source if you know what I mean. BTW, if this guy is so dangerous why didn't they throw him in jail during his last visit to Turkey?

Sociologist and historian Taner Akçam studied at the Middle East Technical University in Ankara. He was a faculty member of Administrative Sciences, Department of Political Economy. He received his Bachelor of Administrative Sciences in 1976. He stayed at the university as a Master's student and assistant in the same department for some time. In 1976 he was arrested and sentenced to 10 years imprisonment as the editor-in-chief of a political journal. Amnesty International adopted him as a prisoner of conscience. (What is a prisoner of conscience?
A "prisoner of conscience" is someone imprisoned solely for the peaceful expression of their beliefs. The term was coined by Amnesty International's founder, civil rights lawyer Peter Benenson.) A year later, he escaped to Germany, where he received political asylum.He has been living in the Federal Republic of Germany since early 1978 as a political refugee. He continued his political actvities and in 1988 started working for the Hamburg Institute for Social Research on the history of violence and torture in Turkey. He earned his Doctorate Degree at The University of Hannover in 1995. The topic was called Turkish Nationalism and the Armenian Genocide on the Background of Military Tribunals in Istanbul between 1919 and 1922. Currently he belongs to the scientific staff of the Hamburg Foundation to promote science and culture, working at the Hamburg Institute for Social Research. Today, Akcam is currently a Visiting Associate Professor of History at the University of Minnesota.

While researching the late Ottoman Empire and early Republic, especially the history of political violence and torture in Turkey, he became interested in the Armenian Genocide. In 1995 he received his doctorate from the University of Hanover with a dissertation on The Turkish National Movement and the Armenian Genocide Against the Background of the Military Tribunals in Istanbul Between 1919 and 1922. Prof. Akcam is the author of ten books and numerous articles in Turkish, German, English and other languages.

The following is a direct quote:

"Turkish nationalism arose as a reaction to the experience of constant humiliations. Turkish national sentiment constantly suffered from the effects of an inferiority complex. Various factors played a role in this. Critical, however, was the fact that the Turks not only were continuously humiliated and loathed, but they were conscious of this humiliation. The Turkish political elite had clear ideas as to what people thought of the Turks, and this knowledge became an important determining factor for their actions. One of the consequences was a strong "sense of being misunderstood" and a fear of being isolated. A nation that was humiliated in this way in the past and is also conscious of that experience, will try to prove its own greatness and importance. As Elias noted:

The established feeling of inferiority ... and the resentment, the sensitivity to the humiliation, often connected with it was countered [and compensated] with the preoccupation with its own greatness and power.

The result is a penchant for power."

Maybe Jean is right, this guy is dangerous and no amount of defamation is going to shut him up.

[Stavros]

Betsy, Spiros is good. Read Mechanism of Catastrophe. A Link is provided.

[Kosta]

Jean,

At this point, I do not believe you are British, at least not by blood. You are Turkish, are you not? The reason I ask is the intensity in which you spew Turkish propaganda.

Do you think I do not know the history of Mr. Akcam? Even in the beginning of his book he mentions being a political activist and jailed.

Now if you look here: http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/devrimi.htm, you will see that the terrorist began in the 80's, long after Mr. Akcam was in prison and escaped. This is a classic example of Turkish revisionist history.

You should note that I provided an impartial source, or really one more partial towards Turkey.

Would you like to try again?

Kosta

[Jean Shawn]

Hello,

The more I write in this blog and receive more replies, the more I realize a full-fledged peace between Greece and Turkey is a looooong time away.

I told you, several days ago that, for us to have a meaningful discussion (and for the two nations to march towards peace), you should stop your insulting comments. You're acting like 16 year olds in a fist fight, still calling Turks 'savage beasts', calling their national hero Ataturk a butcher, and admitting the fact that Taner Akcam is/was a terrorist but still acknowleding him, just because his views are against Turkey, and, perhaps this is the worst of all, speaking words that bring upon us the worst hatred of all times, religios hatred, by saying '...their inability to show remorse or repentance – which, admittedly, may be an Islamic and not just a national trait...'.

So now we'll hate all Muslims because you're a racist?

As I read this blog and other blogs you guys are participating in, I realize more and more that you're just full of it. Stavros a few days ago said 'its not about hatred, its about rememberance'. You're peace-loving, wanna-be-friends-with-Turkey people? Bullshit. Here's a comment from 'demonax' on Phylaxblog (http://phylaxblog.com/?p=46)

"One Armenian told me, when I introduced myself as a Greek from Cyprus, that ‘we have the same enemy’ – which is always a good reason to form a friendship – while I remember another telling me that: ‘From the moment we [Armenians] are born, we are taught that it is our duty to kill Turks.’ Excellent sentiments indeed."

Excellent sentiments indeed? You should be ashamed. The world is better without people like you that teach, sponsor and incite hatred.

Please remember, you (Greeks and Turks) will NEVER see peaceful days if you keep thinking, writing and teaching with this mentality. You keep saying the Turks should take a look at themselves, their history and admit their flaws? What about you? In many ways, you're much worse than the Turks. For the love of God, please ADMIT the fact that you have a lot to improve on before you can bad-mouth Turks; as I said before, you're no 'snow-white'.

This past week, I've never used a word that insulted either the Greeks, Greek-Cypriots, or Turks, on the other hand 90% of your posts contain profanity or hatred. So I think you should understand that I've got nothing more to say to you until you demonstrate that you are willing to have a calm, coherent and intelligent discussion.

Until then, have a nice day.

Sincerely,